Ok to fill in the gap between the Copa America (and European
Championship and Oceanian Nations Cup) and the women's olympics football tournament, let's have a discussion about the best ever player. Or would
this be better left till after Lionel Messi's retired, so that we've got
the whole of his career to look back on?

I think it's probably Pele. Possibly followed by Alfredo Di Stefano.
Lionel Messi's probably on about the same level as Diego Maradona; not
even the best Argentinian player ever. Probably about the same level as Eusebio, Franz Beckenbauer and Ferenc Puskas.

What do yous think?

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On Fri, 19 Jul 2024 14:31:22 +0000, Mark wrote:

Ok to fill in the gap between the Copa America (and European
Championship and Oceanian Nations Cup) and the women's olympics football tournament, let's have a discussion about the best ever player. Or would
this be better left till after Lionel Messi's retired, so that we've got
the whole of his career to look back on?

Hmm... a very old-school discussion!

I would say Messi and Pele are clear above the rest of the field.
Maradona's peak was too short and not dominant enough.

I think it's probably Pele. Possibly followed by Alfredo Di Stefano.
Lionel Messi's probably on about the same level as Diego Maradona; not
even the best Argentinian player ever. Probably about the same level as Eusebio, Franz Beckenbauer and Ferenc Puskas.

People may not like to hear this, but Cristiano Ronaldo belongs easily
in this second group.

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On Fri, 19 Jul 2024 14:31:22 +0000, Mark wrote:

Ok to fill in the gap between the Copa America (and European
Championship and Oceanian Nations Cup) and the women's olympics football tournament, let's have a discussion about the best ever player. Or would
this be better left till after Lionel Messi's retired, so that we've got
the whole of his career to look back on?

I think it's probably Pele. Possibly followed by Alfredo Di Stefano.
Lionel Messi's probably on about the same level as Diego Maradona; not
even the best Argentinian player ever. Probably about the same level as Eusebio, Franz Beckenbauer and Ferenc Puskas.

What do yous think?

I suppose Alphonso Davies doesn't fit the criteria ? Too young and plays
soccer in the color TV era. I'll go for Diego Maradona then.

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Diego Armando Maradona

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On Tue, 23 Jul 2024 13:40:06 +0000, Mark wrote:

Nobody's mentioned any goalkeepers or defenders. How do yous rate Lev
Yashin, Dino Zoff, Ubaldo Fillol, Sepp Maier, Jose Luis Chilavert,
Franz Beckenbauer, Elias Figueroa, Jose Nasazzi etc?

All great players (from what has been written about them by their contemporaries, we really have very little direct evidence to judge
them), but I would argue (even though some fine football connoisseurs
will raise an eyebrow) that it is perfectly appropriate that the list of
best players ever includes almost only attacking players. The objective
of the game is to put a sphere into a rectangular area of roughly
7.3x2.1 meters. That is a *lot* more difficult than making sure that
sphere ends up anywhere else in the universe other than that rectangular
area.

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On Tue, 23 Jul 2024 18:32:45 +0000, MH wrote:

Nobody's mentioned any goalkeepers or defenders. How do yous rate Lev
Yashin, Dino Zoff, Ubaldo Fillol, Sepp Maier, Jose Luis Chilavert,
Franz Beckenbauer, Elias Figueroa, Jose Nasazzi etc?

Beckenbauer played as a midfielder for much of his career (eg. Wc 1966
and 1970), and as a Libero in the strictest sense, one could argue that
he was not really a defender in the narrow sense. Definitely one of the
all time greats as an all-round player, though.

Agreed.

But all these discussions are not very illuminating because most of us
have not seen the players reputed to be among the greats often enough to
form an educated opinion.

Agreed.

In the case of goalkeepers, the changes in rules about handling
back-passes could easily mean that some of those with great reputations
would really struggle in the modern game.

True, but not really relevant for discussions about the greatest ever. Everything is always relative to their contemporaries. I have very
serious doubts that Pele or Maradona would be able to do much in the
modern game, given the differences in speed and athleticism between
today and 40-60 years ago.

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On Tue, 23 Jul 2024 18:32:45 +0000, MH wrote:

Beckenbauer played as a midfielder for much of his career (eg. Wc 1966
and 1970), and as a Libero in the strictest sense, one could argue that
he was not really a defender in the narrow sense. Definitely one of the
all time greats as an all-round player, though.

A libero is a defender. It's just a certain kind of defender.

I was actually thinking you could say that about a goalkeeper though. I
think calling a libero not a defender is more like calling a winger not
a forward than calling a goalkeeper not a defender though. (Ignoring the
fact that a lot of wingers are considered midfielders these days.)

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